Former Attorney General Bill Barr on Wednesday undermined a key pillar of his old boss’ defense in the special counsel’s probe into 2020 election interference, telling CNN’s Kaitlan Collins that Donald Trump “knew well he lost the election.”

The former attorney general also described Trump’s alleged actions as detailed in the indictment as “nauseating” and “despicable,” saying on “The Source,” “someone who engaged in that kind of bullying about a process that is fundamental to our system and to our self-government shouldn’t be anywhere near the Oval Office.”

A central premise of the special counsel’s case is that Trump knew the election claims he was making were false after being told by several close aides that he had lost the election. Trump’s lawyers have argued that his statements were protected under the First Amendment, a position that Barr, in his first interview since Trump’s third indictment, said was not a valid argument.

“As the indictment says, they are not attacking his First Amendment right. He can say whatever he wants, he can even lie. He can even tell people that the election was stolen when he knew better,” Barr said. “But that does not protect you from entering into a conspiracy.”

He added: “At first I wasn’t sure, but I have come to believe he knew well he had lost the election.”